Legislature(1995 - 1996)

02/07/1995 10:04 AM House O&G

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
txt
              HOUSE SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON OIL & GAS                             
                        February 7, 1995                                       
                           10:04 a.m.                                          
                                                                               
                                                                               
 MEMBERS PRESENT                                                               
                                                                               
 Representative Norman Rokeberg, Chairman                                      
 Representative Scott Ogan, Vice Chair                                         
 Representative Gary Davis                                                     
 Representative Bill Williams                                                  
 Representative Tom Brice                                                      
 Representative Bettye Davis                                                   
 Representative David Finkelstein                                              
                                                                               
 MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                
                                                                               
 None                                                                          
                                                                               
 COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                            
                                                                               
 Overview by Department of Revenue, Dr. Charles Logsdon,                       
 Chief Petroleum Economist                                                     
                                                                               
 WITNESS REGISTER                                                              
                                                                               
 DR. CHARLES LOGSDON                                                           
 Chief Petroleum Economist                                                     
 Oil and Gas Audit Division                                                    
 Department of Revenue                                                         
 550 W 7th Ave., Suite 570                                                     
 Anchorage, AK 99501                                                           
 Telephone: (907) 277-5627                                                     
                                                                               
                                                                               
 ACTION NARRATIVE                                                              
                                                                               
 TAPE 95-3, SIDE A                                                             
 Number 000                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG called the committee to order at 10:04 a.m.                 
 Committee members present at the call to order were Representatives           
 Rokeberg, G. Davis, B. Williams, T. Brice and B. Davis.  Chairman             
 Rokeberg declared there was a quorum present and the committee                
 would hear an overview from Dr. Charles Logsdon, Petroleum                    
 Economist for the Department of Revenue.                                      
                                                                               
 Number 039                                                                    
                                                                               
 DR. CHARLES LOGSDON, Chief Petroleum Economist, Oil & Gas Audit               
 Division, Department of Revenue, stated today he planned to give              
 the committee a brief overview of the Alaska oil and gas taxation             
 system.  Dr. Logsdon referred the committee members to a handout              
 that he had provided.  He stated his plan for the day was to go               
 through the procedure the state uses to collect our share of the              
 petroleum production revenue.  He referred to other materials that            
 would be given to the members that would help in their                        
 understanding of the subject at hand, and stated the information              
 would help keep the members up to date on the issues discussed                
 today.                                                                        
                                                                               
 Number 075                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked Dr. Logsdon when the information would be             
 published.                                                                    
                                                                               
 Number 077                                                                    
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON stated the publication is sent out on a monthly basis.            
                                                                               
 Number 090                                                                    
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON started with an overview of the current system.  He               
 stated the first item that he would discuss was property tax.                 
 Currently, all oil and gas production, transportation and hardware            
 is subject to a 20 mill property tax based on the appraised value             
 of that equipment.  Dr. Logsdon stated that for all practical                 
 purposes, what this means is that all of the equipment, pipelines,            
 wells, spare parts, etc., is subject to a property tax which is               
 assessed by the Oil and Gas Audit Division, of which he is a                  
 member.  Dr. Logsdon then mentioned Clyde Benson who is the state's           
 chief assessor, and stated that Mr. Benson is responsible for                 
 assessing all of the property in Cook Inlet, the Trans Alaska                 
 Pipeline and the North Slope.                                                 
                                                                               
 Number 120                                                                    
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON began to explain the mill rate by stating that 20                 
 mills is approximately 2 percent of the appraised value of the                
 property.  He then stated the total value of all the oil producing            
 property around the state is around $15 billion.                              
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON stated that much of this property is located within the           
 boundaries of organized boroughs and therefore is subject to paying           
 borough property taxes.  Dr. Logsdon then explained the way in                
 which this situation works is the state establishes the assessed              
 value, and then becomes the value base the boroughs use to                    
 determine their local property taxes on the same property.  He said           
 the state's 2 percent of the appraised value sets a cap, and there            
 is a formula approach which is used to determine how much of that             
 will be returned to the borough in the form of a credit.  This                
 would enable the companies to pay the boroughs the assessment,                
 which would be a credit against the 20 mills going to the state.              
 Dr. Logsdon further stated the state would split part of the money            
 between the local municipalities and themselves.                              
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON then informed the committee members of the amounts of             
 money that this program is bringing into the state treasury.  In              
 1994 the state received $61.5 million.  The total amount of tax               
 assessed value in FY 94 was $315 million, indicating that the state           
 received $61.5 million and the numerous municipalities received the           
 rest of the monies.  This trend shows that over time the local                
 municipalities have begun taking a bigger share of the property tax           
 money, but the state still receives $61.5 million.  Dr. Logsdon               
 then asked if there were any questions from the committee members.            
                                                                               
 Number 180                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked Dr. Logsdon if his office would provide the           
 information that was just reviewed.  He agreed, and spoke briefly             
 of the Revenue Sources Book which outlines the department's income,           
 and the tax revenues.  Dr. Logsdon stated that the book is very               
 detailed, but if you are interested in where the money comes from,            
 it is a valuable resource.                                                    
                                                                               
 Number 200                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE G. DAVIS asked Dr. Logsdon about his knowledge as              
 far as the history of the tax, and any fluctuations in the 20                 
 mills.                                                                        
                                                                               
 Number 210                                                                    
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON stated the value has been relatively stable.  In other            
 words, over the life of the tax there are two things going on;                
 there are some very large expenditures upfront (obviously those               
 began to depreciate) and as an asset begins to depreciate away, the           
 taxable base becomes lower.  However, the investment in the North             
 Slope has become greater.  There are additional investments being             
 made, and to a certain extent they intended to offset each other.             
 Dr. Logsdon then stated, one thing we will find with regard to the            
 property taxes, is that it is a much more stable revenue source               
 since the property tax is not directly sensitive to oil prices.               
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON went on to say there were indirect effects on the tax             
 base.  Obviously the lower the price, the fewer drilling rigs will            
 be active.  This may cause the company to take the drilling rig out           
 of the state, or there would be a certain factor that would apply             
 to a piece of equipment like a drilling rig.  In other words,                 
 having the drill active or inactive would have an effect on the               
 amount that is assessed for taxation.  Basically, this has been a             
 pretty stable source of revenue for the whole pot.  Dr. Logsdon               
 said, as mentioned before, the amount that has been going into the            
 state coffers shows a trend that has been going down.  He stated              
 the state reached its peak in the early 80s at about $150 million             
 and in 1993 it was down to 66 million and that is about what the              
 level was in 1994.                                                            
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON then explained that much of what occurs is driven by              
 the value of the pipeline.  He further explained, when they started           
 out, the cost base was about $9.6 billion; at this time the value             
 of the pipeline for our present purposes was down in the 4                    
 billions, so the pipeline is worth about half of what it was when             
 it was carrying a full load of oil back in the early 80s, and this            
 has probably been the biggest factor on the overall size of the               
 pie.                                                                          
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON went on to say the other thing that is shrinking the              
 state's share is, of course, the municipalities.  He stated that              
 they relied very heavily on the revenues obtained from the property           
 taxes as a constant source of their annual income, and they have              
 started to take an ever increasing portion of that revenue.                   
                                                                               
 Number 250                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked about the appreciation scales and how they            
 are established under state law.                                              
                                                                               
 Number 252                                                                    
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON said he did not have a great deal of expertise on this            
 issue, but he was willing to give the Chairman a brief summary of             
 what he did know.  He stated that the pipeline is assessed using a            
 net income type of approach rather than a depreciated original                
 cost.  He continued that the equipment will be assessed on a                  
 straight line with an economic life that would be appropriate to              
 the type of facilities that are being discussed.  One other feature           
 of economic life that is becoming an issue is, how much longer is             
 oil going to be flowing off of the Slope?  This becomes a key                 
 parameter in the discussion with the taxing entities and the                  
 property owners.                                                              
                                                                               
 Number 280                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked about the statutes written for the tax, and           
 asked if they targeted just the petroleum industry.                           
                                                                               
 Number 290                                                                    
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON replied that this is a very specific oil & gas                    
 production, transportation, and hardware tax.                                 
                                                                               
 Number 295                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG then asked if it was true that for a number of              
 years the state provided all of the auditors for the appraisal, and           
 that just a few years ago the North Slope Borough took over that              
 responsibility.                                                               
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON replied the North Slope had taken over much of that               
 responsibility.                                                               
                                                                               
 Number 310                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG followed up his previous question by asking if              
 the function that was previously carried out by the state was                 
 shifted over to the North Slope.                                              
                                                                               
 Number 312                                                                    
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON responded that the state had always used contractors.             
 He said the department uses the firm "PRITCHARD & ABBOTT" out of              
 Austin, Texas.  He stated this firm does much of the appraisal                
 work, and explained his answer by stating the localities in Texas             
 have a long tradition of property and reserves taxes.  He agreed              
 that much of the auditing however, is being completed by the North            
 Slope Borough.                                                                
                                                                               
 Number 337                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked if the outside appraisers or the in-house             
 staff make the ultimate evaluation decisions on the hardware.                 
                                                                               
 Number 346                                                                    
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON responded that the state retains the responsibility for           
 assessing the property.                                                       
                                                                               
 Number 350                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG then asked if there were limitations on the                 
 ability of the municipal governments to increase or decrease their            
 share of the revenues.                                                        
                                                                               
 Number 353                                                                    
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON stated he was not an expert in that particular field,             
 and added that he assumed the amount that the municipalities                  
 received was due to their populations.                                        
                                                                               
 Number 368                                                                    
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON stated he could now move to a subject in which he had             
 more expertise.  He began to brief the members of the committee               
 about the severance tax.  He said the severance tax is the state's            
 biggest money maker and it is levied on all production of oil and             
 gas in the state of Alaska with the exception of public or                    
 government royalty production.  He stated there was a small amount            
 of this on the Kenai, but was very minor.  Dr. Logsdon then stated            
 the rates would vary depending on how old the field was, and was              
 going to be subject to the Economic Limit Factor (ELF).                       
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON explained that the ELF is a very complicated formula              
 that was to try to make the severance tax progressive.  It is a               
 factor between 0 and 1 which is intended to reduce the rate of                
 taxation based on how productive the oil field is.  Dr. Logsdon               
 stated there were two main factors in determining this:  The size             
 of the oil field, and how productive the wells are.  He stated the            
 larger the field is and the more productive the wells are, the                
 higher the tax will be.  This means that it will be closer to the             
 factor 1 on the scale.  Dr. Logsdon then asked the members to                 
 consider the age of the field as another factor in this equation.             
 He commented that one of the main incentives is that we tend to               
 give a reduction in the tax rate for the first five years of                  
 production.  The cut in the tax rate leaves the rate at 12.25                 
 percent for the first five years.  We do this to sweeten the deal             
 to allow a more rapid recovery of costs because the tax rate is               
 lower early on.                                                               
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON said this came into effect in June 1981, so any field             
 that was producing prior to 1981 is going to pay a 15 percent tax             
 rate.  Fields like Kuparuk, Endicott, and all of the other fields             
 that came into production after 1981 received five years of                   
 production at the 12.25 percent nominal rate.                                 
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON continued, they have an 80 cents per barrel floor on              
 the oil side.  This 80 cents, at the 15 percent rate totals $5.33             
 per barrel.  So, if the value of the oil at the wellhead is less              
 than $5.33 per barrel, the cents per barrel floor kicks in and the            
 state gets 80 cents per barrel instead of the rate times the value.           
 Dr. Logsdon observed that this situation has actually occurred a              
 couple of times in 1986 when the price of oil was at $10 per                  
 barrel.  He reminded the members that the nominal rate was subject            
 to the ELF, and there were not many fields that actually paid the             
 full rate, and in fact, Prudhoe Bay produced a little bit more than           
 310 million barrels of oil in the 1994 calendar year.  With the               
 nominal tax rate at 15 percent, multiplied by the ELF, you come up            
 with 14.79 percent.  He then observed that a big field with                   
 relatively productive wells like Prudhoe Bay will have an ELF that            
 is very close to 1.  Contrast that with a very small field like               
 Lisburne:  Lisburne produced six million barrels of oil, and it was           
 all produced tax free in the 1994 calendar year.  The other big tax           
 fields like Kuparuk produced 97 million barrels of taxable oil, and           
 the state took just about 13 percent.  Dr. Logsdon mentioned                  
 several other oil fields that produced oil at high levels.                    
                                                                               
                                                                               
 Number 460                                                                    
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON continued by stating the key factor of the ELF is                 
 production at the economic limit.  We currently allow a 300 barrel            
 of oil per well, per day that is tax free.  However, once you get             
 above 300 barrels per day the tax rate begins to go up.  In 1989,             
 the field size factor was introduced and it accelerated the way in            
 which the tax goes up as the field size gets bigger, with other               
 things being equal.  Therefore, if you had an oil field with wells            
 that was producing 1,000 barrels per day, and your total production           
 was 100,000 barrels per day, your tax rate would be higher than if            
 the well productivity was the same, but the field was twice as big.           
 This law, when it was passed in 1989, raised the taxes on fields              
 that produced about 115,000 barrels per day.  If you produced at a            
 rate less than 115,000 barrels a day, you got a tax break.  What              
 that meant in terms of the ELF was the tax rate on Prudhoe Bay                
 stayed at about 15 percent.  Most other fields saw their tax rates            
 go down.                                                                      
                                                                               
 Number 490                                                                    
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON explained the ELF in greater detail by mentioning that            
 it has been around for a while in one form or the other and there             
 have been many papers done on it.  He then wanted to give the                 
 committee a history of the severance tax rate schedule.  Whereas              
 property tax in America is traditionally a tax type reserve for the           
 localities used to fund schools, a severance tax or a production              
 tax, is traditionally developed in America as a statewide tax.                
 Almost every state in the union has an oil and gas production tax,            
 he believes that as many as 35 states have an oil and gas severance           
 tax.   Alaska became a state in 1959, and we had a severance tax              
 that started as a very simple 1 percent levy on gross value.                  
                                                                               
 Number 520                                                                    
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON said, as we became a state and began to take                      
 responsibility for the provision of the number of things that we              
 relied on the federal government for in the territorial days, it              
 was clear that the state needed additional revenue.  At that time             
 we had development on Cook Inlet, a growing oil industry, and those           
 were the places we looked to for revenue.  Dr. Logsdon then made              
 reference to the flood in Fairbanks in 1967.  He recalled that the            
 state needed emergency money and it was decided that this was an              
 emergency that was worthy of an additional percentage point in the            
 tax.                                                                          
                                                                               
 Number 530                                                                    
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON stated that it became clear in the early 1970s that a             
 flat tax of this kind could act as a disincentive to developing               
 petroleum properties, it did not recognize the fact that not all              
 oil fields are created equal.  Some oil fields have a greater                 
 ability to pay the tax.  Because severance taxes are basically                
 assessed on a cents per barrel basis or levied on the gross, there            
 is no recognition of profitability as such, it is the entry fee to            
 develop oil within the boundaries of the state.  So what you ended            
 up with is a stepwise tax.  In other words, you'd pay so many                 
 percent on the first couple hundred barrels per day, and then as              
 production levels increased, the rate of taxation would go up again           
 on the next couple of hundred barrels.  So from very early on there           
 was a graduated step-schedule of taxation based on well                       
 productivity.  When Prudhoe Bay came on line this was a whole                 
 different level of oil production than the state had seen in prior            
 times, and there was a great desire to make sure that the state               
 benefitted from what was, even at the prices of that time (in the             
 3- 4- or 5-dollar per barrel range) likely to become a very                   
 valuable mineral development.                                                 
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON continued that we couldn't just move in and raise oil             
 prices without looking at the oil fields under production in Cook             
 Inlet.  This was an entirely different situation than what was up             
 on the North Slope which was the bonanza.  As a result we got the             
 ELF.                                                                          
                                                                               
 Number 558                                                                    
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON commented, the ELF did not have any exponents on it at            
 all.  It was simply a fraction which scaled the tax rate based on             
 how much above 300 barrels per day you produced from each well on             
 the property.  The first exponent which was 1.5333 simply took a              
 curve which went up towards 1 fairly rapidly and leveled off at the           
 higher rate of well productivity.  The function of the final                  
 addition, put into place in 1989, was done to remedy what the                 
 people thought was the problem with the legislation that was passed           
 in 1981 which put a 10-year stop-the-clock deal on a 15 percent at            
 Prudhoe Bay, because after 10 years the tax rate was scheduled to             
 drop.  It turned out in that the 10-year provision resulted in a              
 large drop in revenues.  This was probably premature due to the               
 fact Prudhoe Bay didn't start to decline until 1989.  He stated he            
 was sure all of the members of the committee were probably aware of           
 the difficulties that occurred with the modifications made to the             
 ELF.  He stated they wanted to ensure the tax rate at Prudhoe Bay             
 stayed close to the 15 percent level, while the rate on the                   
 marginal fields was dropped to encourage development of some of the           
 marginal fields.  That, he stated, is a brief overview of the                 
 severance tax, and said he would provide the members with                     
 information that was available through his office about some of the           
 more technical aspects of the ELF.                                            
                                                                               
 Number 595                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG stated to the committee that it would be                    
 beneficial to pursue more information on this subject.  He then               
 asked Dr. Logsdon if he could comment on the size and number of               
 wells, and how those factors relate to the ELF.                               
                                                                               
 Number 606                                                                    
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON responded that based on the typical geology of the                
 North Slope, generally speaking if you have an oil field that                 
 produces 30,000 barrels per day or less, it has been their                    
 experience that the field is not going to pay much in the way of              
 severance taxes.  That is a function of both the fact that 30,000             
 barrels per day is going to decrease the sensitivity of the ELF,              
 and secondly, fields of that size tend to have wells that are not             
 very productive.  There are some instances where there have been              
 very productive pockets of oil where you would have up to 5 million           
 barrels of oil that you could do with a step out and average up to            
 6000 barrels per day.  However, these pools do not average that for           
 very long, and that pool of oil is depleted very quickly.  In that            
 case, the field size factor is small enough so that even though               
 they are very productive, they will not pay any taxes.  However,              
 once you get into the larger fields, for instance a field with 100            
 million barrels in it, you find a tax rate that is very dependent             
 upon how productive the wells are.  A field like Point McIntyre               
 which produces about 130,000 barrels per day, has a very high ELF             
 probably in the .8 to .9 range.  They are very productive and have            
 a high tax rate.  Once you get a field that has above 1 billion               
 barrels in the field, even with wells that are not very productive,           
 the field size factor will overtake production and you will pay a             
 very high tax rate.  This is a rough gauge as to how sensitive the            
 tax rate is.                                                                  
                                                                               
 Number 655                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked if the number of wells make a difference on           
 the ELF.  He also asked if a company can set up more wells to lower           
 the ELF.                                                                      
                                                                               
 Number 660                                                                    
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON responded that you must look at the cost of drilling              
 extra wells, against the tax savings.  He then stated this was an             
 issue, but the answer is yes.  There is an incentive, albeit a                
 small one, to build more wells.                                               
                                                                               
 Number 670                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG then followed up by asking whether or not there             
 is a disincentive in not drilling more wells for an existing field.           
                                                                               
 Number 680                                                                    
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON stated that this was an interesting issue.  With modern           
 technology, the companies are capable of having multiple pumps from           
 a single well bore.  He stated this was a difficult issue due to              
 the fact there is a debate as to what the definition of a well was.           
 For example, you could have a single well, but if you ran five                
 separate tubings through it, is there one well or five?  Dr.                  
 Logsdon gave a preliminary answer to this question by stating it              
 would depend on how those tubings were completed on those wells at            
 the bottom to determine whether you could claim one or five wells.            
 He then stated they have looked at the impact on incentive of                 
 basing the tax rate schedule on well productivity which is just               
 really a function of how much oil there is, and how many wells.               
 The formula for that would be total production divided by the                 
 number of wells equals production per well.                                   
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON said there was one other minor issue that came up after           
 the ELF debate.  The question was, "What happens if the companies             
 pump something into the wells to help in the retrieval of the                 
 remaining oil?"   He stated the ELF would automatically go up due             
 to the fact there would be an increase in production.  So far they            
 have not been able to demonstrate this has a tremendous effect,               
 mostly because of the fact it is the price of the oil that makes              
 the most difference on the revenue side than these minor changes on           
 the cost side.  This never is clear cut, and is always disputable.            
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE G. DAVIS asked Dr. Logsdon if there has ever been              
 any dispute concerning overlapping fields.                                    
                                                                               
 Number 719                                                                    
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON responded that the Department of Revenue has tried to             
 provide the correct tax and to ensure the taxpayer contributes the            
 proper amount.  If the oil company can provide a reasonable way of            
 ensuring an accurate accounting for all of the oil and the                    
 department could allocate it, there should not be a problem.                  
 Generally speaking, it hasn't been a real problem because there are           
 numerous private interests in each of those fields.  So, to a                 
 certain extent, we could rely on the owners themselves, but it is             
 easier to keep track of if the developments are separate.  For                
 example, if you have two fields, one right on top of the other, and           
 there is one well that is drawing oil out of both wells, then it is           
 difficult to determine which oil came from which field.  He stated            
 these are just hypothetical issues right now, but they are issues             
 for the future.  He then stressed the tax is based on production              
 and not revenue.                                                              
                                                                               
 Number 783                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked for a brief discussion as to the source             
 of the oil disputes.                                                          
                                                                               
 Number 800                                                                    
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON replied the disputes begin on the value side of this              
 equation.  The tax base is the value of the oil in the ground.  The           
 price side is disputable because they did not have a reliable                 
 on-sight measure of the value of the oil at the point where they              
 tax it, which is the point where the oil is extracted.  On the                
 North Slope, the oil is transported through the pipeline, then it             
 is loaded onto tanker vessels to be transported to the refinery.              
 This all adds to the cost.  This creates a problem in setting a               
 value for tax purposes.  The companies' main point of disagreement            
 came from the process of determining the value of the oil.  This is           
 where the dispute started.  On the royalty side there are many                
 other issues in addition to what the value of the oil is, what the            
 transportation costs are, and what the appropriate transportation             
 costs are.  On the royalty side there is also a dispute over the              
 cost of the deduction for cleaning and dehydrating.  This is a                
 fairly typical deduction in a royalty situation.                              
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON said there is an issue affecting both the tax and the             
 royalty.  The first is, whether it is appropriate to use the                  
 netback method which is the one that the state opted to use.  The             
 real dispute occurred because funny things happened to the price of           
 oil in the late 1970s when oil prices went way up, and there was no           
 way to establish the true value of the oil.  The problem occurred             
 because they couldn't establish a price for the oil at the                    
 wellhead.                                                                     
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON then explained what was meant by the netback approach.            
 He stated that you take the price of oil on the market and subtract           
 out the allowable transportation costs to back in to what the oil             
 was worth when it came out of the ground.  So we are back at the              
 problem of determining what the appropriate deduction for                     
 transportation was; recognizing that the different companies had              
 approached the decision in different ways.  Also, at the time there           
 was no agreed upon tariff for use of the pipeline.  This was                  
 essentially a monopoly and subject to regulation by the FERC, and             
 the state and companies went to court to argue for the appropriate            
 methodology for establishing an appropriate tariff.  What this                
 boiled down to was, how rapidly should the investors be compensated           
 for the capital that they had put at risk, and the rate of return             
 that the investors should have.  The state agreed to a front loaded           
 capital recovery program.  In other words, they gave the companies            
 a higher rate of return in the first few years of production so               
 they could recover their capital costs very quickly.  As a result,            
 with those costs regained upfront, there should be an incentive to            
 reinvest that money and increase production.  So, in a nutshell,              
 the disputes lie in value or transportation.                                  
                                                                               
 Number 960                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked if it was a fair assessment that everyone           
 is now following the same procedure.                                          
                                                                               
 Number 970                                                                    
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON answered that big chunks of the dispute have come off             
 of the table.  He followed up by stating this was a function of the           
 fact that most of the biggest pieces of the dispute were not                  
 knowable back in the early 1980s when there was this price                    
 explosion.  But fortunately, the "Market Paradigm" on the price               
 side of the equation is in on the rise.  There is now a                       
 proliferation on the value of oil due to factors around the world.            
 We no longer need to try to back into values through complicated              
 methods or overly simplified methods.  Also, in the Department of             
 Revenue we have made a major overhaul of our regulations that cover           
 the severance tax.  The previous regulations were in many cases 15            
 years old.  A lot has changed in the industry since then.  We have            
 made a huge effort in making those regulations more current, and              
 together with the rest of the industries.  Now the disputes are               
 much more manageable, and I don't see us getting to the point that            
 neither party can act.                                                        
                                                                               
 TAPE 95-3, SIDE B                                                             
 Number 000                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked if it was Dr. Logsdon's group that put out            
 the new regulations.                                                          
                                                                               
 Number 012                                                                    
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON stated it was his office that put out the new                     
 regulations, and he was hopeful that they would help to reduce the            
 massive amount of paperwork that moves through his office.  He then           
 estimated that it would take six months to accomplish this goal.              
                                                                               
 Number 032                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG then asked if there was a need for a statutory              
 change by the legislature to help find a solution.                            
                                                                               
 Number 034                                                                    
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON responded that he was not prepared to discuss that                
 issue.                                                                        
                                                                               
 Number 036                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE G. DAVIS asked if the tax returns mentioned earlier            
 were quarterly returns.  Dr. Logsdon stated Representative G. Davis           
 was correct.                                                                  
                                                                               
 Number 045                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Dr. Logsdon if there was a process by              
 which some of the smaller problems that occur in this field could             
 be resolved very quickly.                                                     
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON stated, there are provisions in place to ensure the               
 department has the ability to talk to the taxpayer about certain              
 developments, or any other changes in what they are doing which               
 might have some tax consequences.  Therefore, there is the                    
 opportunity for informal conferences, and ultimately you can ask              
 for a formal hearing if there was some aspect of the regulation               
 that you wanted to challenge in court.                                        
                                                                               
 Number 094                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked if there was a stipulation as to the                  
 valuation of the prices.                                                      
                                                                               
 Number 100                                                                    
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON answered they use the SPOT price method.   If there is            
 a West Coast delivery, then we will use a West Coast SPOT.  The               
 same is true for a Gulf Coast, or Midwest delivery.  There are                
 timing issues that have become a problem.  Should the value of the            
 oil be based on the time at which it was loaded for transport, or             
 do you value it at the time at which it was delivered.  These are             
 very major theoretical problems.  Dr. Logsdon stated my                       
 recommendation is that we do need the ability to ensure these SPOT            
 prices are being carried out fairly.                                          
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked how the department would handle a                  
 situation where a company delivers oil to its own refinery.                   
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON stated they would assess that situation on a SPOT price           
 in that market.  There are regulations providing factor adjustments           
 for other specific markets.  There will be some questions raised              
 about valuation of the oil if ANWR is opened.  Hopefully, we would            
 be able to find a publicly quoted SPOT price for a Pacific Rim                
 delivery.  Dr. Logsdon then responded to a comment by Chairman                
 Rokeberg that these prices would most likely be found in Plats Oil            
 Gram.  He then went on by stating that, on the royalty side, they             
 have a market basket which use the same source to develop the value           
 for royalty purposes.  Based on the way the contracts are written,            
 they tend to look a lot like a standard lease; it is the state's              
 ownership interest and not a tax.  The state has a 12.5 percent cut           
 off the top, the state can either take in barrels, or in value.               
 Not all of the leases are 12.5 percent, some are as high as 20                
 percent. The rates on the North Slope for instance come close to              
 that 20 percent level.  There are also some profit share leases               
 like those at Endicott in addition to the fixed royalty.  These are           
 calculated to recover all of the development costs and operating              
 expenses with interest.  He stated they are hopeful the development           
 account at Endicott would be paid off soon.  He then stated, if the           
 members wanted to think of royalties as being at 12.5 percent, that           
 is a fair estimate.  However, with the new regulation, we are                 
 focusing on the monthly SPOT price.  On the royalty side there are            
 some different deals.  The deal that we did with ARCO uses the                
 market basket theory.  For instance, on the West Coast there are              
 six different kinds of crude oil, each with a different weight.               
 You take the SPOT price average for each of those crude oils,                 
 average it and that becomes the value of the basket.  Depending on            
 the company, you may or may not make an additional factor                     
 adjustment to that value.  On the ARCO side, there is no factor               
 adjustment.  However, ARCO does have a direct formula for the                 
 transportation cost allowance.  When the formula is figured out it            
 comes to about 3.5 percent of the market value, which is then                 
 subtracted from the basket value to get a price for Valdez.  And              
 then you subtract the pipeline to get a wellhead price.                       
                                                                               
 Number 258                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked if there were negotiated formulas under the           
 regulations.                                                                  
                                                                               
 Number 274                                                                    
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON responded that they were negotiated as part of a                  
 settlement.  They are used monthly to determine ARCO's royalty to             
 the state.                                                                    
                                                                               
 Number 293                                                                    
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON proceeded to move to the flip chart where he                      
 demonstrated the mathematical equations for the committee members.            
 He worked through the market schematic, as well as the formula used           
 for determining the tariff rate.                                              
                                                                               
 TAPE 95-4, SIDE A                                                             
 Number 000                                                                    
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON continued his presentation on the flip charts.  He                
 displayed the formula for the ARCO value formula and the royalty              
 severance tax.                                                                
                                                                               
 Number 150                                                                    
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON returned to his seat at the front of the committee to             
 provide the committee members with some extra information on the              
 tax system.  First, he mentioned a conservation tax, which is                 
 assessed at the rate of 4 mills per barrel of oil, or 4 mills per             
 50,000 cubic feet of natural gas.  This tax is not levied on the              
 public royalty production.  Much of this tax is used to fund the              
 oil and gas conservation commission.  This is a common occurrence,            
 and it brings in about $2 million per year.  The corporate income             
 tax is also known as a worldwide apportionment.  This tax is not              
 directly sensitive to the price of oil, so in theory should be more           
 stable than the other taxes.  This is tailored to specifically                
 address the petroleum producing companies by the way the three                
 factor formula is derived.  The oil and gas companies are subject             
 to a three factor apportionment method that is different from a               
 general corporation's.  Dr. Logsdon said we have something called             
 the percentage of corporate sales and tariffs from Alaskan                    
 operations.  This is different than the factor approach used by the           
 other corporations.  The maximum marginal rate is 9.4 percent, the            
 average rate they pay is closer to 1.5 percent.  This is because              
 Alaska represents a big chunk of the net income of our three                  
 biggest companies.                                                            
                                                                               
                                                                               
 Number 203                                                                    
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON continued his discussion of the tax structure by                  
 informing the members of a production tax surcharge.  This tax is             
 used to set up a fund to cover the cost of an emergency occurring             
 in the oil industry.  This tax was set up at 5-cents per barrel,              
 for every taxable barrel after the Exxon Valdez disaster.                     
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON commented on how the state measured up to the rest of             
 the United States.  He said that Alaska is just like the rest of              
 the United States, at the margin, as far as the oil companies are             
 concerned.  He then said that our system isn't that unfair.  We               
 have very large development costs, and to get to a point where                
 there is some income is more difficult in Alaska.  That is                    
 especially so when oil prices are lower.  He then referred to some            
 pie charts that he had brought with him to show the members of the            
 committee.                                                                    
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON commented that the most tax friendly area on the planet           
 is the United Kingdom.  Their rates are almost 15 percent better.             
 Dr. Logsdon mentioned that for the first time royalties fell below            
 $100 million in 1994, and he stressed the real factors which                  
 determine how much the state will get in royalties is how many                
 barrels are produced each year, and how much they can be sold for.            
                                                                               
 Number 300                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked if there was an investment credit on the            
 corporate income tax.                                                         
                                                                               
 Number 307                                                                    
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON replied that the main credit is called the exploration            
 incentive credit.  This is given at the discretion of the                     
 Commissioner of the Department of Natural Resources.  The state, on           
 a qualified lease, (i.e., a lease that the commissioner wants to              
 have granted and believes that there is a possibility for a good              
 return of the investment) can grant up to 40 percent of the cost of           
 drilling that exploration well.  This can be credited against the             
 company's royalty obligation or severance tax.                                
                                                                               
 Number 320                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked if this was done only at the request of the           
 commissioner.                                                                 
                                                                               
 Number 328                                                                    
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON stated this was done at the request of the                        
 commissioner.  He later commented that he didn't know if they were            
 always granted, but it was his impression that most of the                    
 recommendations are granted, and told the Chairman that it was a              
 discretionary issue.  Dr. Logsdon also mentioned that he didn't               
 know the total dollar amount that could be given as part of this              
 credit.  However, he did say that the state is not willing to dump            
 $40 million into an exploratory well somewhere offshore.                      
                                                                               
 Number 352                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG then asked about the idea of review of incentives           
 and if Dr. Logsdon would comment on that issue.                               
                                                                               
 DR. LOGSDON replied there are a number of things that can be                  
 addressed in this issue.  Our position is, we are going to protect            
 the revenue stream.  He then reported the decisions made in this              
 field are relatively good decisions.  He said you want to give                
 incentives, but you don't want to give away the farm.  He continued           
 that he believes we are in a mode of declining production, and we             
 must be concerned as to where the state's money will come from in             
 the future.  One recommendation that Dr. Logsdon made was that he             
 believed it was necessary to insure the integrity of the pipeline.            
                                                                               
 Number 427                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG thanked Dr. Logsdon and stated for the record               
 that Representative Ogan joined the committee at 10:10 a.m., and              
 Representative Finkelstein joined the committee at 11:00 a.m. and             
 left at 11:15 a.m.                                                            
                                                                               
 ADJOURNMENT                                                                   
                                                                               
 Chairman Rokeberg adjourned the meeting at 12:00 p.m.                         
                                                                               
                                                                               

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